This episode is PART ONE of my two-part series on becoming a better listener. In this episode, we go through an overview of listening, break down the nuances of what makes a good listener versus what makes a not-so-good listener, and unpack common roadblocks to listening. In next week's episode, we will go through tips to work on to become a better listener. All worksheets and book recommendations are in the show notes. Be sure to check out the show notes for all citations + information. If you like my content, I would love to have you as a part of my community. I invite you to follow me on Instagram @codependentrecovery. Check out the show notes for information on how to purchase my workbook & how to join ZOOM community clubs. Don't forget that a new podcast drops every Monday. Tune in next Monday for a new episode. We heal better together. See y'all soon. Xoxo- Cordelia
Podcast Info
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WORKBOOK + COMMUNITY + RESOURCES
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CITATIONS FOR TODAY'S EPISODE
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BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS
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WORKSHEETS
[00:00:00] Happy Monday. This is Cordelia on the We Heal Together Podcast. New episodes drop every single Monday. Today's episode is part one of my two-part series that I'm doing on becoming a better listener. So, in today's episode (Part One), I am going through an overview of listening, breaking down the nuances of what makes a good listener versus what makes a not-so-good listener, and unpacking common roadblocks to listening. In next week (Part Two), I'm going to go through tips to work on becoming a better listener. So, I am excited to get into this! If you have time, I would appreciate you leaving a review for my podcast. And, you know, if you're listening on a platform that you're able to do so, that would mean the world to me or just sharing the podcast with your friends. Awesome. Well, let's get healin'!
Music plays [Music credit: L-Ray Music, Courtesy of Shutterstock, Inc.]
[00:01:36] Let's get right into this. In this episode, as I mentioned, we're getting into listening. This episode this week (part one) is going to provide an overview, get into those nuances of comparing what makes a good listener versus what makes a not-so-good listener, and closing it out with going through common roadblocks that come up and prevent us from listening or from being our best self when we're trying to listen. As always, if you are new to the podcast or if you've forgotten, check out the show notes for citations for today's episode, for recommendations/worksheets. Just want to stress the importance - look at the show notes, check out those citations, see where I'm getting this information. I try to mention it as I'm speaking throughout the episode. Sometimes, I forget. It's always there if you're ever wanting to check the sources or learn more. I put that stuff there - not only to credit where I get it from, where I learn this information but also to give you guys that information. So, if you find the podcast beneficial, then you can check out the show notes and say, "Hey, I'm going to check out that book that Cordelia referenced or look into her sources as a starting point for my own research because I'm interested in this topic and I want to expand on it."That's all there for you to utilize.
[00:03:26] There is one book that I'm going to consistently reference throughout this episode. It's called The Lost Art of Listening: How Learning to Listen Can Improve Relationships. It's the second edition. It's by Michael P. Nichols, Ph.D. It is truly amazing. It is such a good book. And I'm not being paid in any way; I'm not - this is not an advertisement for this book. . . .I came across it on Amazon; I actually read it in just a few days, like one or two days over, I guess it was around New Year's, and it was one of the best books, I think, that I've ever read. And I'm going to be referencing it a lot, but I wanted to just go ahead and tell you about it at the beginning of this episode.
[00:04:28] Let's get right into this. So, first, a general overview of listening. In that book that I just referenced, the Lost Art of Listening, I really liked how the author broke this down. So, he says, "listening has not one but two purposes taking information. And bearing witness to another's experience."
[00:04:54] The same author says, "understanding is a joint achievement. One person trying to express what's on their mind. And the other trying to read it." He tells us that listening is an active process. It's something that takes deliberate effort to suspend our own needs and reactions. And, he says, "listening shapes us, not being heard twists us."
[00:05:31] I wanted to do this episode because this is an area of my life that I am working on, I'm striving to be better in, that I have taken stock, and looked at myself and. . .truly, I'm like, "Cordelia, you can do better in this." I want to improve my listening skills. Even if it's not something that's at the forefront of what you're working on, I imagine there's so many people out there who could benefit from this.
[00:6:17] One thing that I found really interesting when I was reading that book was the author talks about how people tend to talk about listening as something that you're just either good or bad at, and we don't look at it as this skill that you can practice. And, that really resonated with me because I do feel like I have heard that throughout my life and, I don't know, I think it is something that I kind of just lumped into, “oh, some people are good at that, and some people aren't.” But, the book kind of changed my perspective on that, and it really made me realize, “OK, no, this isn't just like this passive process. This is an active thing, and just like anything else in life, we can practice that, and we can get better at it.” And I mean, even before I was reading the book, this was an area that I've been working on, but that book really put that into perspective for me. It made me realize that I wanted to do a podcast episode and hopefully help others that are struggling in this area or wanting to do better in this area, or maybe you are a great listener and you just want to kind of learn more about the topic. I really hope this episode benefits you.
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[00:7:42] I'm going to break down what makes a good listener. What are some things that a good listener does? What are some qualities that a good listener possesses? And, as I go through these, I want you to remember next week I'm going to get into tips and all that. But, in today's episode, when I'm going through comparing the good listener versus the not-so-good listener, I want you to kind of think and maybe even write down on a sheet of paper: which of these areas are you struggling in? And this is something you can come back to you, of course, you know, you don't have to do all of this right now if this is your first time listening. But really, these lists are going to be really good for you to reflect on before we even get to the tips episode.
[00:8:44] A good listener is attentive; they're alert to the speaker’s, not only verbal what the speaker saying verbally, but the speaker's nonverbal behaviors and communication.
[00:9:03] A good listener is patient. They’re not interrupting. They're waiting for the speaker to finish. This is an area that I struggle in.
[00:9:15] A good listener asks questions in a non-threatening tone.
[00:9:23] A good listener paraphrases what the speakers told them in their own words. They make an effort to understand the speaker. They demonstrate an interest in the speaker as a person. They show a caring attitude, and they show that they're willing to listen to this other person.
[00:09:54] They're a witness, not a judge, to the speaker's experience. They're not judging; they're not criticizing. Just witnessing what's being said. They appreciate the speaker just as they are. They accept the speaker's feelings. They accept the ideas that the speaker is expressing to them.
[00:10:25] They let go of what's on their own mind long enough to hear “what is going on with this other person that is talking to me.”
[00:10:36] They're open to listening and discovering, as opposed to entering the conversation and just presuming, “well, I know what this person's going to say.”
[00:10:48] They're able to suspend their own agenda. They're able to forget and let go of what they want to say, and instead, devote their concentration on listening and what's being said to them. They restrain from disagreeing or giving advice, or sharing experiences.
[00:11:16] They encourage the speaker to go deeper. They want that speaker . . . “Hey, can you expand on that?” . . . They want you to expand on your ideas, your feelings. . The listener wants that speaker: “hey, say some more, I'm really interested here.”
[00:11:38] They put the emphasis on the speaker. Not the listener themself.
[00:11:46] They aren't distracted; they aren't on their phone. They're not watching TV. They're not doing six things at once. They're devoted to listening.
[00:12:01] They use non-verbal communication to encourage further speaking. By this, I mean, they do, you know, small smiles to show that they're paying attention, or they nod their head at appropriate moments. They mirror facial expressions. They maintain eye contact. Now, I want to say that can be intimidating for some people. You know, especially if it's a shy person that you're speaking with, so with eye contact, kind of just gauge how much is appropriate, depending on the person that you're talking to.
[00:12:47] ] Verbal signals. They make little interjections like, “Uh-huh, yeah. Or really? Oh my gosh” -- Things that are used sparingly, so, I mean, if somebody was doing this constantly, that wouldn't be a great listener. That would be kind of distracting. But, somebody who uses it an appropriate amount & it in a way that encourages you to continue speaking . . that’s good.
[00:13:23]] They ask relevant and clarifying questions, so you can really tell they're listening. After you've finished saying whatever you're saying, you know, they have a follow-up question. And you can tell, “Oh, cool. They want me to say more about this, and they were listening because they just asked this question. That's awesome.”
[00:13:46] And paraphrasing - they use it as a device to encourage explaining. Saying something like, “Okay, what I'm hearing is this…” And, you're not just, like, repeating what the other person said, you're using it as a way to show that you're trying to understand. So, typically, quick little paraphrase and then a follow-up question for clarification or to dig a little bit deeper.
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[00:14:17] Now, let's compare that to some of the things, some of the qualities, some of the ways that people are not so good at listening. I am going to walk you through some nuances that make up a not-so-good listener.
[00:14:46] They control the other person's right to tell their story. They finish that person's sentence. They push that person to what they want to hear.
[00:15:03] They mistake reassurance as listening. Reassuring is different than listening.
[00:15:14] They presume to know what the speaker is going to say.
[00:15:21] They use phrases like, “Yes, but…” - That has the effect of telling the speaker, “Hey, I'm actually right, and you’re wrong.”
[00:15:34] They say things like, “Oh, I understand.” That translates to, “You know what? Don't even bother going on, I understand.” Saying “I understand” isn't, I mean, it's not understanding. It implies, “okay, dude, you don't even need to finish because I'm letting you know, like let’s save you some time here, I get what's going on.”
[00:16:01] They interrupt with their own story. So, “Oh, that reminds me of a time…” - I loved the way the author in that book I mentioned, he says, I quote: “People assume that sharing their own experience is the equivalent of empathy.” – So powerful. I had never thought about it that way, but many of us do definitely think that. Right?
[00:16:33] They can't separate listening from advising. Again, the author had a great quote where he was talking about somebody in the book, and he says, “They can't listen without feeling the need to reform her.” -- Oooh, That's a big one, that's a big one.
[00:16:58] Next, people mistake the supporting role of the listener for the lead part. When I read that in that book, I seriously got goosebumps, it's so true. I feel like that's such a good way to think about it to you like, “okay, the listener is a supporting role. The speaker. I mean, they're the main character.” That's a really good analogy and a really good way to think about it.
[00:17:32] Somebody, I mean this is obvious, but somebody who is faking or feigning attention. Obviously, you're not listening if you're faking.
[00:17:44] Next, this is pretty big—people who misunderstand active listening. I have heard this happen so many times. And I mean, I have to believe it's pretty common. People believe that active listening just means: “Okay, summing up what you say, and now, I'm going to shift the focus away from you, and we get to finally talk about me.” Active listening shouldn’t. . . it’s not like a memory game. We are not playing a memory quiz. We should not think of paraphrasing as a launch point to now finally get the spotlight.
[00:18:36] Next, focusing on yourself. So, basically, just waiting to tell your story or opinion, so you're just kind of letting time pass until you're like, “okay, well, that person had their say, so now I'm going to just go ahead and jump in here with my stuff.”
[00:18:59] Next, offering unsolicited advice. I love this quote, again, from the book: “telling the person with the problem to do something constructive reflects a listener's inability to tolerate their own and anxiety.” -- That's so big, as somebody who has totally been guilty of this many, many times, that's so true. Yes, like you're not able to just sit with your own anxiety and sit with your own emotions, and so you move out of the role of the listener, and you try to become that main character. You are like, “let me save you and help you.”
[00:19:44] A not-so-good listener: the jokester. This is so hard because I come from a family that definitely uses joking as, I guess, as a main form of communication. And I mean, in a lot of ways, it has been awesome. Still, I definitely identified with this, so the author says: “the thin, unreliable rhetoric of distraction in place of authentic emotional engagement. . .They use something you say as a trigger to make a joke.” -- I'm not suggesting that you should not be funny and you shouldn't have a sense of humor. I mean, I totally appreciate that. I think that's an amazing quality in a person. But I did really identify with this because . . Gosh, I mean, we can all think of people in our lives where you're trying to talk to them about something, and you know, it just feels like they are not really listening. They’re looking to make a joke in the situation in the conversation
[00:21:10] Next, somebody who says: "Don't feel that way." Telling people not to feel the way that they do. If somebody is talking to you about their stuff, I mean. . . it’s not good listening. People are allowed to feel. However, they feel. Feelings aren't good or bad. And, when you tell somebody that, I mean, it's not going to make them feel better, and it's probably just going to make them not talk to you about anything in the future.
[00:21:49] Next, “haven't we talked about this before?” -- This is huge.So, I like that the author said the other person keeps talking about something “maybe because you haven't fully acknowledged their feeling.” That one stings a little bit, right? I'm sure we've all said that to somebody before, and that’s pretty huge.
[00:22:16] Next, just changing the subject, so saying something like, “guess what?” -- I mean, you're basically saying, you know what? Something just popped in my head, and it's way more interesting than whatever the heck you were just talking about.”
[00:22:32] Next: the self-conscious listener. So, think of that person that's like . . I mean, it feels that like they're just like. . . “Am I doing okay? Do I look like a good listener?”. . . You know, they want to be seen as a good listener, but they aren't really listening.
[00:22:50] And then, doing things that get in the way of listening.So, think about somebody who's just blank stare - it looks like they're staring off into nowhere. Yawning, looking away, shaking their head negatively, moving away from the speaker, have their arms crossed, or they might have like a negative facial expression, like frown or pouting, something like that.
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[00:22:50] The last part of today's episode: I'm going to get into is give you some roadblocks to listening. And, I actually got this list from a workbook that I own on DBT skills, and they cited a study and had this all lifted out. So, here is the different ways that people can drop the ball when it comes to listening.
[00:23:58] Evaluating the person and what they say rather than really trying to understand how this person sees the world.
[00:24:08] Diagnosing: “well, what's wrong with you is. . .”
[00:24:13] Not paying attention to what the other person is saying.
[00:24:17] Correcting: “Okay, that’s not how it happened. . .”
[00:24:21] Giving unsolicited advice: “Well, I think you should. . .”
[00:24:28] One-upping: “That's nothing . . wait until you hear what happened to me.”
[00:24:34] Feeling stressed. Daydreaming. Interrupting and talking over somebody.
[00:24:43] Hearing the other person's words, but not paying attention to their body language and tone.
[00:24:51] Preoccupation with your own problems.
[00:24:55] Stealing the thunder and changing the subject.
[00:25:00] Trying to look interested while rehearsing a response in your head.
[00:25:07] Assuming you know what the other person thinks and feels without asking.
[00:25:14] Listening only to things that are important and relevant to you and ignoring the rest, even if it might be important to the other person.
[00:25:24] Invalidating the other person by arguing and debating.
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[00:25:30] Wooooo! I hope you have loved this episode, so next week, we're going to actually. . I'm going to get into the tips of how to become a better listener. But I wanted to give you guys some time to sit with all this information because I think it is important, and I wanted to kind of space out the episodes for that reason.I feel like this is an episode that you really should listen to a few times, maybe even take some notes on.
[00:26:03] I mean, listening. I think a lot of us overestimate how good of a listener that we are. Does that make sense? I think many of us if we're honest with ourselves, do a lot of these things. I'm not shaming you at all if you're like, “Okay, Cordelia! I feel attacked right now because I do everything on your not-so-good list. I am totally not listening to your podcast anymore. I'm turning this off, and I hate you.” -- I don't mean to come at you like that because honestly, I identify with so many things on this list. We're human; you're human. We have all done this if we're being honest.
[00:26:56] It’s not like we ever . . unless we were raised in an environment with exceptional listeners. . I'm going to guess you never went to some kind of listening class or learned how to do this in any kind of way. So, don't be hard on yourself. Hey, we're all in this together. We're all learning, we're all healing together.
[00:27:24] Awesome. So, tune in next week. New podcasts drop every single Monday. If you like my content, be sure to follow me on Instagram; @codependentrecovery is my Instagram name. Check out my show notes. I have a link to my Instagram. I have a link to that book as well that I mentioned, and worksheets, citations, all that good info.
[00:27:55] If you don't know, I wrote a workbook for people going through a breakup or divorce. It's 98 pages. It's available worldwide. It is in print or eBook, so both are available again—link in the show notes. I've gotten so much awesome feedback from that, and it's, I mean, it's been really incredible, so I really appreciate everyone who supported me and bought that. Thank you so much. You're all amazing.
[00:28:29] The other thing I want to mention is I launched a book club, and I also launched a community club. Both happened on ZOOM. Both happen once a month. I started in October.
[00:28:46] I announced for the book club. .. it happens, again, on ZOOM once a month. We just had this last weekend; we had our meeting over the January book, which was Where the Crawdads sing. February’s book is Codependent No More. I actually announced the list of all the books we're reading for 2021. It is $3/month to do the book club. If you do the community hang, that is $3/month. If you do both, it’s $6/month.
[00:29:20] The community hangs. They happen once a month on ZOOM. They do not involve reading. We literally just hang out for a few hours on ZOOM. Everybody catches up, and, you know, it's just an awesome way to connect, especially during the pandemic that's going on. I've honestly been enjoying it so much. I think it's awesome. I've met so many cool people, and our book club now has, well, both -- we have people all over the US, there is a few people from Italy, somebody from Amsterdam, someone from Pakistan. It's awesome, like it's so cool to me, and it's amazing. I appreciate each and every one of you, and I can't wait to talk to you guys next Monday. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your support, and have an amazing week.